How mismatched were the Shannon and Chesapeake?

My attention was taken to the fight between the British frigate Shannon and the American frigate Chesapeake, during the War of 1812. I wondered just how mismatched the two ships were. This is the data for the Shannon:

LGD: 150ft-1-1/2in
LK:  125ft-2-7/8in
B:    39ft-9in
D:    13ft-9in

Guns: 28-18pdr, 10-9pdr, 8-32pdr carronades

This is the data for the Chesapeake:

LGD: 151ft
LK:  126ft-7in
B:    40ft-11in
D:    13ft-9in

Guns: 28-18pdr, 2-9pdr, 16-32pdr carronades

On paper, they seem pretty well matched, although the Chesapeake had the disadvantage of so many carronades, so that an enemy might fight beyond their range. The Chesapeake was said to have a crew of new recruits, while the Shannon was commanded by Philip Broke, a premier British frigate captain.

Some Hollandsche Mercurius years are available in Google Book Search

A correspondent of mine pointed out that Google Book Search now has some Hollandsche Mercurius years available as full view items. I hope that they eventually will have full coverage. I happen to have the 17th Century publications for 1650-1658 and 1665-1671, although what I have lacks the nice Reinier Nooms illustrations of the original. The Hollandsche Mercurius is a useful source, although it does not replace what original archival sources that still exist. I would also like to see the Ontstelde-Zee (1654), by "Jodocus Hondius" (apparently a pseudonym) appear in Google Books. The James Ford Bell Library at the University of Minnesota holds a copy. Copies may be more freely available in Europe than here.

The Amsterdam ship Zeeland in 1631

From the list of ships dated 4 July 1631 that I received recently, there is the ship Zeeland, commanded by Joris van Cats. This was a ship of 225 lasts, which might have been built to the standard 125ft x 31ft x 12ft x 7ft dimensions. The Zeeland had a crew of 95 men and was armed with the following guns:

4-bronze 18pdr
2-bronze 8pdr
6-iron 12pdr
10-iron 8pdr
4-iron 5pdr
2-bronze 3pdr bases

The hired ship Postpaert

You will see the hired ship Postpaert mentioned in The First Dutch War book. The Postpaert was hired by the Admiralty of Friesland in 1652 and served through at least late 1653. The Postpaert was armed with 30 guns: 10-12pdr, 8-8pdr, 8-6pdr, and 4-4pdr guns. The Postpaert had dimensions of 118ft x 28ft x 13ft x 7ft. For most of the First Anglo-Dutch War, Isaac Codde was the Postpaert's captain.

Witte de With and the Battle of the Kentish Knock

I continue to be interested in Witte de With and the Battle of the Kentish Knock. I have letters and journals for Witte de With, but I do not have the good journals from 1652 that have been partially included in The First Dutch War, Vol. II. I am particularly interested in the report of the status of ships that was prepared on 10 October 1652 (as I understand it). I have assumed that it is comparable to the report prepared on 23 June 1653, following the Battle of the Gabbard. That latter report is very useful, even though the information is incomplete. For example, there are dimensions and a gun list for Cornelis Pietersz Taenman's ship Prins Maurits that was later sunk off the mouth of the Meuse at the end of the Battle of Scheveningen. Nico Brinck had told me that he had helped raise guns from this ship, although they had a different guess as to the name of the ship.

Pieter de Bitter and the Mercurius

On page 2 of J.C.M. Warnsinck's book De Retourvloot van Pieter de Bitter 1664-1665, he states that Pieter de Bitter's ship, the Mercurius, sunk at the Battle of Scheveningen, had 40 guns and a crew of 200 men. Sadly, both figures are wrong. The Mercurius was a fairly small ship, of 122-1/2ft x 30ft x 12ft x 6-1/4 or 6-1/2ft. This was a vessel of about 220 lasts. The Mercurius carried 36 guns: 6-18pdr, 4-12pdr, 10-8pdr, 6-6pdr, 6-4pdr, 2-3pdr, and 2-2pdr guns. The crew varied in size, but often was somewhere between 100 and 120 men. At Scheveningen, the crew may have been 110 men. This is based on documents from April 1653 to August 1653 from several archives.

Some ships hired by Amsterdam in 1653 in the Mediterranean Sea

There is a document dating from 1652 that lists ships either hired, or considered for hiring by the Admiralty of Amsterdam in the Mediterranean Sea. There are no guns listed but there are partial dimensions:

Port     Ship            Schipper                    Dimensions
Livorno  Sint Pieter     Pieter van Breen            130ft x 30ft x ? x 6-1/4ft
Venice   Sint Philippo   Foppe Gerritsen             136ft x 30ft x ? x 6-1/2ft
Naples   Suzanne         Daniel Jansz de Vries       133ft x 29ft x ? x 6-1/4ft
Venice   Morgensterre    Hendrick Govertssen         125ft x 28ft x ? x 6-1/2ft
Venice   Venetia         Cornelis Schellinger        130ft x 28ft x ? x 6-1/2ft
Venice   Swarten Arent   (Pieter Jansz Bonttebotter) 130ft x 28ft x (13ft) x 6-1/2ft
Venice   Sint Marc       ?                           130ft x 30ft x ? x 6-1/2ft
Livorno  Witte Oliphant  Seijbrant Jansz Mol         134ft x 29ft x ? x 6-1/2ft
Zemia ?  Salomons Ordeel Meijndert Teunisz OostWout  141ft x 31ft x ? x 7ft
Venice   Jupiter         Cornelis Jansz              130ft x 30ft x ? x 7ft
Naples   Sint Andries    Anthonij Claesz van Woglom  136ft x 29-1/2ft x ? x 6-1/4ft
Venice   Arent           Claes Cornelisz Roos        132ft x 29ft x ? X 6-1/2ft
Naples   Pellicaen       Cornelis Danielsz           136ft x 29-1/4ft x ? x 6-1/4ft

The Sint Matheeus

For a while in the 2007 timeframe, we believed that there must be two ships named Sint Matheeus. The reason for that is that there seemed to be two sets of dimensions for a ship named Sint Matheeus. One is the ship with length and beam quoted in Vreudenhil's list (144ft x 36ft x 15ft x 7ft) and the other was the ship with dimensions listed in lists of Amsterdam Directors' ships (140ft x 34ft x 15ft x 7-1/3ft). I think that we assumed that the 50 gun ship was the larger of the two. We knew that the 140ft ship initially carried 34 guns. By May 1653, that ship carried 42 guns. In fact, there was only one ship and that was the one captured by the English in the Battle of the Gabbard on 12-13 June 1653. This was the ship that Tromp fretted about in January 1653, when the ship was missing after a storm. Tromp feared that the Sint Matheeus had been captured by the English. He was concerned, because he expected that the Sint Matheeus was large enough that the English would arm the ship with 60 guns. In fact, in the Four Days' Battle in June 1666, the Mathias (as the Sint Matheeus was called by the English) was armed with 54 guns.

The Vrijheid in early June 1653

The Amsterdam ship Vrijheid was one of the best Dutch ships serving with the main fleet in early June 1653. Like some other ships, the Vrijheid had been up-gunned after the Battle of Portland (the Driedaagse Zeeslag). The Vrijheid carried 50 guns in the Battle of the Gabbard and for the rest of the First Anglo-Dutch War. They consisted of: 4-24pdr, 22-12pdr, 20-8pdr, 2-6pdr, and 2-3pdr guns. The Vrijheid had carried 46 guns in late 1652: 4-24pdr, 24-12pdr, 16-8pdr, and 2-6pdr guns. This was a very substantial ship for the time: 134ft x 34ft x 13-1/4ft x 7ft and had a crew of 210 men by the fall of 1653. Captain Augustijn Balck had commanded the Vrijheid up until the Battle of Portland, when he was killed. Abraham van der Hulst commanded the Vrijheid for the rest of the war, starting with the Battle of the Gabbard in June 1653.

De Jonge's list for the Dutch navy in March 1653

Sadly, we don't know if De Jonge's notes for the list of March 1653 exist. They are not amount his papers preserved at the Nationaal Archief in The Hague. We do have his notes for 1654 and later, at least some of them. If they existed, the notes would be priceless. I can name most of tbe ships in the list, but I can't account for one 40 gun ship of the Admiralty of Amsterdam. The list is peculiar, in that it seems like some ships lost in the Three Days Battle are shown as losses and other ships which were lost in March are still listed (seemingly). One suggestion is that the last Amsterdam 40 gun ship is the Vogelstruis, captured by the English in the Three Days Battle (the Battle of Portland).

Got into 17th Century naval history because of wargaming

In late 1989, I was looking for a new topic to research to support wargaming. I had spent much of the last 20 years studying the War in North Africa, as well as the broader war in Europe. I focused on mechanized warfare, tanks, and artillery. I had expected that there would be sufficient information about the Spanish Armada campaign and ships to pursue that, but that proved to be not the case. Instead, I stumbled onto Archibald's book: THE WOODEN FIGHTING SHIP IN THE ROYAL NAVY AD 897 - 1860. What particularly caught my interest was the period from 1642 to 1660. I started looking for more sources and first found David Howarth's book Man of War. A year or two later, I found The First Dutch War and then The Royal Navy: a History from the Earliest Times to the Present (the 1890's). By then, I was hooked. After meeting Frank Fox, I took his advice and looked for a way to access data from the Dutch archives. "The rest is history" so to speak.

Small Dutch 38-gun ships in the First Anglo-Dutch War

The Dutch had a number of small 38-gun ships in the First Anglo-Dutch War. Almost predictably, most were lost. These were the ships that come immediately to mind:

Adm    Ship                 Captain
Z      Hollandia            Philips Joosten & Adriaan Bankert - Lost at Scheveningen
Ve-Dir Wapen van der Veere  Jan Olivierszoon                  - Survived the war
F      Stad Groningen en Ommelanden Joost Bulter              - Lost at the Gabbard
F      Zevenwolden          Frederik Stellingwerff            - Lost at Scheveningen

The armaments of these ships varied from 34 to 38 guns at different dates. Their lengths varied from 120ft to 123ft, so they were quite small. The smaller Dutch 40-gun ships were 125ft and most were 128ft. Of course, the small Rotterdam ship Vrede carried 40 guns at the Battle of Lowestoft, and she was approximately 112ft long in Amsterdam feet (the actual size different from that, since the ship was designed in Maas feet). These lengths are all in Amsterdam feet.

Ron van Maanen

I would like to see Ron van Maanen publish a book, in English, something like Colledge's Ships of the Royal Navy, but for Dutch ships. Even if he published a book that only covered the sailing warships from the late 16th Century to the end of the Dutch Republic, that would be of interest to a great many readers. Ron has information that covers a wider range than what I have. I am limited to 1613 to 1784 or so, with the 18th Century being fairly sparse. I will continue to supply him with my latest set of information so that he could fill in any gaps that he has. He has been working in this arena much longer than I have and I am very appreciative of how generous he has been in sharing information.

3-1/2pdr guns in 1629

An interesting feature of the guns carried by the Rotterdam ship Postpaert in 1629 is that the ship carried two "Spanish" guns firing 3-1/2 pound shot. These would be roughly equivalent to English falcons. The Dutch also used guns firing 2-1/2 pound shot in the early 17th Century. These were similar to the English falconets in shot size.

22 pounder guns?

I have never seen a 22pdr gun before, but supposedly, Hillebrant Quast's ship, the Hollandsche Tuin, carried two of them in 1631. For a ship of 180 lasts, the Hollandsche Tuin was heavily armed, as it also carried 6-18pdr guns. The 22 pounders were bronze chambered guns, while the 18 pounders were bronze guns. A ship of 180 lasts might have dimensions of 120ft x 28ft x 11ft.

The crew of the ship Sint Pieter in 28 October 1653

The ship Sint Pieter was hired by the Directors of Amsterdam in 1653. On 28 October 1653, the crew consisted of 68 officers and sailors, 29 ship's soldiers (marines), 5 land soldiers, and 6 boys. This is from a report signed by Captain Gerrit Schuijt.

A Dutch ship in 1616

There are gun lists for some ships in service in 1616 on page 750 of Vol.I of Geschiedenis van het Nederlandsche Zeewezen, now available from Google Books. My identification of the 36-gun ship at the upper left of the page is the Amsterdam ship Gulden Arend. This was a ship of 220 lasts armed with 2-24pdr, 4-18pdr, 2-12pdr, 12-8pdr, 2-6pdr, 6-5pdr, and 8-steenstukken shooting a three pound shot. The crew in 1616 was 90 men.

I would like to find a college or university in the United States where there was interest in studying 17th Century Dutch naval history and warships. There is no one in my family who would be interested in continuing my work. I hope to have a good bit of time left, but I would like to find a home for what I have found by the time I am done with it.

22pdr guns?

The Noorderkwartier ship Hollandsche Tuin, in the Staat van Oorlog te Water for the year 1633, is listed as carrying two chambered bronze 22pdr guns. The 22pdr is a very odd size. Most Dutch guns close in size to this fired a 24 pound shot. A very few fired a 20 pound shot. I had assumed that when I first saw this size mentioned that it was a mistake, but now I think it is correct. One of the old Rotterdam ships was listed as carrying 22pdr guns, and I had thought that it must be wrong, but it was probably correct.

Rotterdam ships

I realized today that the Rotterdam ship Zeekalf was probably the same size as the ship Dolfijn (or Dolphijn, in the archaic way of spelling the name). The Zeekalf is listed with different Rotterdam last figures, but when it is 180 Rotterdam lasts, that is about the same as the Dolfijn, built in 1631 or 1632. An ship size in Amsterdam lasts is about 1.3 times the number of Rotterdam lasts. For example, the small frigates Overijssel, Utrecht, and Gelderland, listed in Vreugdenhil as 100ft x 23ft x 8ft are said to be 90 Rotterdam lasts. Of course, those dimensions are in Maas feet of 12 inches (about 308mm). An Amsterdam foot is about 283mm and is divided into 11 inches of about the same size inch as those in the Maas foot. You can find my example of how to do the conversion at Kentishknock.com. I also list what seems to be the correct dimensions for the Dolfijn. My working hypothesis is that about the same dimensions were used for certain sizes of ships in lasts over an extended period of time. That may be wrong, but I have not found a way to check the hypothesis yet, as I lack Rotterdam ship dimensions for the 1620's and earlier.